Warsha 0:01  

Welcome to the Dare to Scale show with me Warsha

Evan 0:05  

and me, Evan.

Warsha 0:06  

So, what is Dare to Scale? Over the years that we’ve been coaching founders and business owners, much like yourselves, we work through a framework called Dare to Scale

Evan 0:18  

Dare to Scale. Indeed, that framework has helped loads of business owners. And that is what this show is all about. So, put on your big picture thinking hat.

Warsha 0:28  

Oh, and your headphones, and come join us and enjoy the ride.

Evan 0:40  

Hey hey hey, welcome to the podcast.

Warsha 0:43  

Hey, thanks for joining us today. How you doing everybody?

Evan 0:46  

Hi everybody. Good to see you.

Warsha 0:48  

Good to see you. So, Evan.

Evan 00:51
Yes Warsha.

Warsha 00:52
I have a question for you.

Evan 00:54
Okay.

Warsha 00:55
How well, do you know yourself? 

Evan 0:57  
Very well.

Warsha 0:58  
Do you?

Evan 0:59  

I think so? Very well, who knows me better than me.

Warsha 1:02
Your wife?

Evan 1:03
Haha. Yes, dear.

Warsha 1:05  

What? So how well, do you think somebody else knows you

Evan 1:09  

Look in fairness very well, because they see things that? Well, my mom always used to say, we don’t see ourselves as others see us. And you know, we can’t see our own faults.

Warsha 1:20  

Or someone better characteristics.



Evan 1:23
Oh, absolutely.

Warsha 1:24
It really is about awareness. Isn’t it? our self-awareness?

Evan 1:27  

Definitely. Yeah.

Warsha 1:28  

So, we’re talking about this today? Because today’s topic is that Johari Window

Evan 1:35  

Johari. Indeed. Wonderful tool.

Warsha 1:38  

It is. So, the Johari Window was developed by two psychologists Joseph Luft and Harrington Ingham, in the 1950s would you believe.

Evan 1:48  

Long time back? Oh, I just got it. Jo, and Hari

Warsha 1:53  

Jo and Hari Joseph and Harrington ha, very imaginative. And anyway, so the Johari Window is a wonderful tool to be used. As that self-awareness tool. It’s a journey of self-discovery. And you will hear me say journey of self-discovery several times during this podcast, because today’s episode because it really is exploring that unknown, about ourselves, if you will.

Evan 2:20  

Which is part of the feedback and growing

Warsha 2:23  

Part of the feedback and growing and really expanding that area. There really expanding that circle. And some people call it stepping outside your comfort zone, knowing a little bit more about yourself expanding that awareness circle.

Evan 2:38  

Absolutely. I mean, you may have strengths that you weren’t aware of. And it’s very easy for people to pick out, you know, things that are not quite so good. But definitely strengths.

Warsha 2:47
Definitely strengths.

Evan 2:48
Like you’re very good at seeing potential in somebody. Like if somebody in the team is like that person will be really great at x, whether it could be sales could be some whatever, right?

Warsha 2:59
Yeah

Evan 3:00
But there’s a bunch of things that you see that skill. Well, you see the potential there, and those people don’t see it for themselves. And when you have the discussion, that’s partly what we’re talking about here.

Warsha 3:08  

That is true. It’s interesting, you were talking about this, and I was really saying how we both complement each other.

Evan 3:15
That’s true

Warsha 3:16
In our strengths as well.

Evan 3:17  

Hehehe boring accounting.

Warsha 3:19  

So, while I am very much that public face, if you will.

Evan 3:23
Yep

Warsha 3:24
Perfectly comfortable being in front of the camera of being in the public eye. And I’m really very comfortable doing that

Evan 3:29
Yes

Warsha 3:30
At the same time. And like you were saying, I’m great at spotting opportunities as well, just not just in people, but in circumstances situations. And I’m really very quick at spotting opportunities. So, it is wonderful. And we’ve been through this ourselves, haven’t we? And that’s why today we play to our strengths.

Evan 3:49
Absolutely absolutely

Warsha 3:50
And we complement each other. And we have come to accept our strengths and accept our it sounds like a very corporate language when you say your strengths and your weaknesses and whatever. But it really is we play to offense.

Evan 4:04  

It’s very much complimentary.

Warsha 4:06
Yeah

Evan 4:07
There are strengths within the doing space, that I will definitely pick up those strengths and the idea of space. ideas come to me a lot more slowly. And you run a lot more quickly. But that’s a good thing. When we work and we run together, we moderate each other and we head in the right direction at a good pace.

Warsha 4:24  
That’s true. And we came to this after after few. Well, it’s true, because we really had to open ourselves up to first of all, as a couple, we decided to sit down and work on the Johari window for ourselves. And only when we presence some of our strengths and our not so strengths, if you will, we began to own that space.

Evan 4:52  
Definitely. Any couple that works together will definitely run into this problem.

Warsha 4:56
Oh yeah

Evan 4:57
It really is establishing where the strength but also, look, I mean, this is a separate topic for discussion, but it’s also establishing who does what, right. And because you have your strengths, it’s a lot easier than to say, you know, what you play in this sandbox area, whatever it is.

Warsha 5:13
Yeah

Evan 5:14
I play in this one and combined, you know, we’re covering a lot more of the business.

Warsha 5:18  
Yeah, that is true. So, let’s go back a little bit, and actually explain what the Johari Window is, because it looks like.



Evan 5:25
I am sure the listeners would like that

Warsha 5:26
We are running away with our own little story and running away with our own little story. So, what does the Johari Window look like?

Evan 5:35
Okay

Warsha 5:36
So think of this as a two by two table, where the top left cell is called the arena, or the public space,

Evan 5:46  

The public space. Yeah.

Warsha 5:47  

And the square next to that on the right side is called the blind spot.

Evan 5:52  

Okay, so where do I sit in this?

Warsha 5:55  

Let me explain what the four squares are

Evan 5:57
Okay so blind spot. Yeah.

Warsha 5:58
And the square under the public space. So, the bottom left square is called the façade.


Evan 6:04
Okay

Warsha 6:05
Or the private space. And the bottom right is called the unknown.

Evan 6:10  

Okay, great. So public, blind, private and unknown.

Warsha 6:15  

That’s the one. So, what happens in the public space or the arena, as it’s called, is something that you know about yourself

Evan 6:23
Okay

Warsha 6:24
And people around, you also know that about yourself.

Evan 6:28  

All right, okay. Okay.

Warsha 6:29
Okay

Evan 6:30
So dedicated may think I’m dedicated.

Warsha 6:32
Yeah, that’s the one

Evan 6:33
Alright

Warsha 6:34  

And in the blind spot is something that you don’t know about yourself, but somebody else knows about you.

Evan 6:42  

Okay, yeah, fine. There’s like feedback, right?

Warsha 6:45  

It’s like feedback. Exactly. So, I think I’m very open and accommodative. Okay, and many times, I’m told, actually, you’re very assertive.

Evan 6:57  

So, it could be as similar. Okay, fine. Yeah. So, it’s just a different perceptions.

Warsha 7:02  

It’s different perceptions. And also, it’s fairly contextual. So, while when I am in the team space, so when I am showing up as a leader of my team, I’m actually putting the team in front. And my team knows that and that’s how we function.

Evan 7:18
Okay

Warsha 7:19
So if there is something, a decision has to be taken, I asked him his opinion, and it’s an agreement and feedback. But when I am in this space, we are individually developing something, I am very much my own master, and I want to do it my way. So again, it’s very contextual, this may be too much information. but what I’m getting at is something that you know about yourself, no, but something that you don’t know about yourself, but somebody else does goes in the blind spot.

Evan 7:53  

Okay? So, it comes to your awareness,

Warsha 7:55  

It comes to your awareness, and something that you know about yourself, and you have chosen not to share it with someone else goes in the facade, or the private space,

Evan 8:02
Yep

Warsha 8:03
Which is a bottom left square.

Evan 8:05
Yep

Warsha 8:06
And something neither of you know, or no one knows, goes in the unknown square.

Evan 8:16  

so that all makes nice sense. And so you’re aware of things not aware of things, all of that, so that’s fine. So that’s a lovely theory.

Warsha 8:22
Yeah

Evan 8:23
What next?

Warsha 8:28  

We’ll come to that in just one minute. Remember that this Johari Window can really be used as that journey of self-discovery, again, in most areas of your life, once you know that this concept, once you know about this concept, just by listening to this concept, as we talk about this today, we have already brought to our awareness, this model.

Evan 8:56  

So, it’s a possibility.

Warsha 8:57  

It’s a possibility, because we mostly most of us on this beautiful earth go about life thinking, Well, I know everything, and I am who I am. And I am an open book. we very rarely are an open book.

Evan 9:06
Certainly not. That’s true.

Warsha 9:08
So just by listening to this, just by getting to know about the Johari Window, we have peel that onion layer.

Evan 9:17  

Exactly.

Warsha 9:19  

Yeah, So, this pretty much will bring about changes in your relationship, your feedback, and how you choose to share and what you don’t choose to share and whatever.

Evan 9:26
Yeah

Warsha 9:27
In all areas of your life, but be it with your spouse, or your partner, or your extended family or your different sort of networks that you hang out with, and most importantly, in your business.

Evan 9:41  

Well, of course that’s why we are here

Warsha 9:47  

With you teams. That’s why we’re here. Because the minute you play with this in your company, you just watch how strong those conversations become how clear those communications become how people begin fearlessly owning that space.

Evan 9:58
Yeah

Warsha 9:59
Because you have presence something that may be people didn’t want to bring out. And a little bit more on that as we go along, because I know you have a story to share with us as well about that.

Evan 10:10
Yeah yeah

Warsha 10:11
So, a little bit more on what we mean by that.

Evan 10:15
Okay

Warsha 10:16
So, let me explain what now.

Evan 10:18
So, this is like the application.

Warsha 10:19
this is like the application.

Evan 10:25  
Know how to use this in practice, what

Warsha 10:27  
Do you do with it? This can be a very simple test. And while you can get professionals to come and administer this test, across your teams, this can actually be done just for you. Pick the test with your trusted team member, sit down and work through this. It’s all about half an hour, 45 minutes, set aside an hour for example, with conversations and everything. So, what happens?

Evan 10:51
Okay

Warsha 10:52
Out of a the prescribed 50 odd attributes or objectives, you choose five or six, six.

Evan 11:02
Okay

Warsha 11:03
Which are most applicable to you, according to you.

Evan 10:27  
Okay, so my top five, my top six, whatever it is, this is a thing, dedicated, logical, whatever.

Warsha 10:54  
Yeah, so, you pick your top six,

Evan 11:13
Yep

Warsha 11:14
And you get your team member, whoever you’re sitting with, to pick the top six, what they see in you.

Evan 11:20
Okay

Warsha 11:21
Yeah. So, you could be friendly, it could be logical, it could be brave, it could be caring, and so on. When you’re done with the test, you pick the most common ones. If there are common ones,

Evan 11:34
Okay

Warsha 11:35
They’re most likely our common ones. And those attributes are written in that arena or the public quadrant.

Evan 11:47  

Of course, because both people because you and I both agree that I’m logical, free..

Warsha 11:52  

Yeah. So, something that you have not picked, but your team member has picked goes in the blind spot,

Evan 11:58  

which makes sense, something I’m not aware of.

Warsha 12:00  

Yeah. Something that you have picked but the team member has not picked goes into that facade.

Evan 12:05  

Absolutely not telling you that. I’m sorry. I have no, I have no, because it is on the list no.

Warsha 12:10  

It is on the list. And something that nobody has picked, which is the bar

Evan 12:11
So the rest of the words.

Warsha 12:12
The rest of the words go in the unknown. So, either they are irrelevant

Evan 12:17
They may be

Warsha 12:18
But just don’t apply.

Evan 12:23  

Yeah

Warsha 12:24  

Yeah. So again, remember, just so we know, we’re clear. When you are picking those attributes, something that you think I am most likely this will go in the public arena. And the same way your team members and you are most likely that

Evan 12:36
Yeah

Warsha 12:37
Oh, you’re most this

Evan 12:42  

It’s sort of like there’s agreement on that particular their own space.

Warsha 12:43
Yeah.

Evan 12:44
And then there’s the feedback. And all this is what I’m feeling.

Warsha 12:45
That’s the one

Evan 12:46
So essentially, you’re expanding as best you can that public space?

Warsha 12:50
Absolutely, that’s the point

Evan 12:51
Because when you take the feedback, and you given the sharing,

Warsha 12:53
Yeah,

Evan 12:54
Right, the overall public space actually increases. So, there’s less unknown,

Warsha 13:03  

There is less unknown. Yeah, that’s exactly what this is. So just so this becomes a little bit more clearer on what that application is. So now you have done the test. And now what, and at this stage, I want you to share that story. This was a whole episode in that time, isn’t it in your previous life in the corporate world?

Evan 13:21  

Yeah, this was quite some years ago. And it was very, very interesting. There was a team member, technically very, very good.

Warsha 13:23
Yeah.

Evan 13:24
And came across as aloof. Now, what was interesting was, we did this exercise. And the hilarious thing as such was, so I put aloof and for him that was in the blind spot. And he shared, he was reserved. So, what do you mean by that?

Warsha 13:42
Reflective and quiet

Evan 13:44
Yeah. But it was reserved.

Warsha 13:45
Yeah

Evan 13:46
There was a specific reason for that. And so we started talking about that. And in his previous job.

Warsha 13:51
Yeah

Evan 13:52
The team were not encouraged to speak up.


Warsha 13:54
Oh, nice.

Evan 13:55
So he’d actually learned behavior.

Warsha 13:57
Yeah.

Evan 11:58
In the previous work. So, when it became apparent, that’s that’s not how it works here. If you have something to say it’s important to say it.

Warsha 14:05
Yeah

Evan 14:06
Because unless it’s like a question, the only stupid question is the one that’s not asked. You know what I mean right.

Warsha 14:11
Yeah
 
Evan 14:12
So if you have something to say, say it.

Warsha 14:13
Yeah.

Evan 14:14
And was waiting for permission to speak


Warsha 14:15
Nice,

Evan 14:16
Seriously okay. I understand how some companies can do that.

Warsha 14:19
Yeah.

Evan 14:20
So what was aloof to me actually wasn’t that at all.

Warsha 14:25
Right

Evan 14:26
In the end and even though it was reserved, it turned out when, when the guy knew he could actually speak.

Warsha 14:31
Yeah

Evan 14:32
It negated both of those things. And suddenly, there was a lot to be said, it’s like, Dude, what happened there you know.

Warsha 14:36
Yeah

Evan 14:37
And it made the world of difference.

Warsha 14:38
Yeah,

Evan 14:39
Absolutely did so it’s well worth having.

Warsha 14:42
Yeah

Evan 14:43
These kind of sort of tests or exercises, right? Just to get that awareness

Warsha 14:47  
Conversation. Let’s just call it

Evan 14:48
Conversation yeah.

Warsha 14:50
Because that’s what this is. And I remember what how did this even come about in those days because that was quite conversation that you and I used to have about this because you would come home and talk about this. You like that guy? Huh? He was really good at what he did you wanted, you knew there was more to him than meets the eye. And he wanted to explore that. You wanted to mentor him.

Evan 15:14  
Exactly. So? And that’s the point.

Warsha 15:17  
Yeah. And something else that I remember you used to say, is that is that little bit of an imbalance in energy within the team?

Evan 15:20
Yeah

Warsha 15:21
Because the rest of the team were fairly open and unreservedly shared their opinions.

Evan 15:32  
Some louder than they really should have been. And that, again, was a separate conversation. And the trouble with that also is the louder ones can actually overpower

Warsha 15:37
Yeah

Evan 15:38
A good person.


Warsha 15:38
Yeah

Evan 15:39
So, there was something there, we had the conversation, and the dynamics definitely changed.

Warsha 15:43
They changed

Evan 15:44
And it was for the better the entire team benefited.

Warsha 15:51  
And because it was led from you from the top, because you then during the conversations actually paused the meeting, and directed a question at this person and waited for them to actually talk about it. So naturally, the message to the team was,

Evan 16:04
Exactly yeah yeah

Warsha 16:05
There is somebody else’s table. And of course, this was public knowledge. And you this was a conversation that you had with the rest of the team. So, the dynamic changed quite a bit.

Evan 16:12
Absolutely

Warsha 16:13
And that guy’s gone on to do great things. And in life after that.

Evan 16:15
Definitely

Warsha 16:16
That is so wonderful. So, you really use the Johari window, to put something out there for you both to literally pull the curtain. And so, let’s talk about it. You don’t have to hide here anymore.

Evan 16:33  

Exactly.

Warsha 16:34  

And it’s so lovely that you did this, because this doesn’t normally happen in a corporate world anyway.

Evan 16:40  

That’s true. Well, it may involve HR in a very different sort of context. And it could work out to be a little more difficult than just having that one to one feedback.

Warsha 16:44
Yeah

Evan 16:45
Sort of feedback and you know, building your own team.

Warsha 16:50  
Yeah. And preferably done with the person that they work with, rather than sitting with somebody else in HR and going through this.

Evan 16:52
Then you don’t want to talk

Warsha 16:55
And then it becomes impersonal, then it becomes it takes a different direction, when HR is involved in a conversation like this, because it then it’s directly related to performance. Anyway, that’s a whole another absolute life

Evan 17:04
Absolutely

Warsha 17:05
That opens up.

Evan 17:11  

So, within your own team, you can definitely have this sort of framework, and it’s okay to set the ground rules where communication

Warsha 17:13
Yeah

Evan 17:14
It is okay to put on the table. And it’s it’s about removing emotion, and essentially just having an open honest conversation.

Warsha 17:22
Yeah

Evan 17:23
And the same thing, I think you’ve also got to mention that the same thing actually can happen between departments.

Warsha 17:32  

It does, it can happen between different departments.

Evan 17:34  

In corporate world, oh, dear God, you know, I mean, my background is finance, that sort of CFO space. And, you know, working with the sales department used to be quite interesting.

Warsha 17:38
Yeah

Evan 17:39
But then, you know, I don’t fully understand what that team needs to deliver

Warsha 17:43
Yeah



Evan 17:44
What sales right, but how they operate and how they get there is something that’s a little bit alien to me, you know,

Warsha 17:48
Yeah.

Evan 17:49
And the finance space, or, you know, sticklers for this and the next thing, you know, and that can be really difficult.

Warsha 17:59  

So, what you saying really is describing what certain professions? How do you mold a mindset?

Evan 18:05  

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So, the rest of the entire company, we would look at the finance space ago, you know, sort of dull and boring, but then that’s fine.

Warsha 18:10
I know

Evan 18:11
Because you’re dealing with auditors and all sorts of stuff.

Warsha 18:13
Exactly
 
Evan 18:14
And like, half the rest of the company don’t know what.

Warsha 18:16  

No, and you got to tally right down to the last penny.



Evan 18:17
Absolutely

Warsha 18:18
So, of course, we are sticklers for what you do,

Evan 18:20
Absolutely

Warsha 18:21
Because that’s what your job calls for.

Evan 18:27  
And then, you know, like, I used to work in hospitality. So, you know, in the food and beverage department, you had some absolutely wonderful people, people

Warsha 18:29
Yeah

Evan 18:30
Dealing with the guests and serving coffee. And just, you know, I mean, one of the barman was just how he did it. But he got to know individual guests. And when he knew they were coming back.

Warsha 18:40
Oh wow

Evan 18:41
And he knew that they liked, I don’t know that in the UAE with a drive magazine.

Warsha 18:46
Yeah

Evan 18:47
Right? So, it’s a vehicle sort of magazine, he would actually go and get it out of his own pocket, he actually going by the magazine, when the guy rocked up, not only would he have his drink.

Warsha 18:56
Nice


Evan 18:57
Now the drink that that person actually always wanted, he would also have the magazine. So, things like that customer service.

Warsha 19:03
That’s amazing

Evan 19:04
It’s not so much that is alien to me. It just doesn’t come as naturally.

Warsha 19:07
Yeah

Evan 19:08
You know, so it’s part of that.

Warsha 19:09  

Such a lovely story

Evan 19:10
Yeah

Warsha 19:11
Anyway, we digress

Evan 19:12
We do again.

Warsha 19:13
So yes, this can be used this framework, this model can be used as groups as well, to encourage that conversation to encourage that transparency to encourage smoother communication between departments because departments,

Evan 19:31
Of course

Warsha 19:32
If you don’t encourage that conversation, if that doesn’t flow from top down from the leaders, very quickly, as the company grows very quickly, departments begin to work in silos anyway, because they think work, nobody understands how why work, just.

Evan 17:45
Yeah yeah yeah of course.

Warsha 17:46
You know, just as when we coach or when we done our peer to peer boards. So many founders why while they know this will be great for them, one of the first thing they say is Oh, but nobody knows how my business runs?

Evan 20:01  
No, of course not. And when they sharing something, so let me give you the 20 minute sort of synopsis of my business. No,

Warsha 20:09  

No, you don’t

Evan 20:10 

It doesn’t work like that, because of business in a way

Warsha 20:12
Is a business.

Evan 20:13
Right? Same fundamentals are no different industries.

Warsha 20:21  

We digress again. So, we’re coming back to this model, and how that can now be used between departments. So, you run the same exercise, as a group,

Evan 20:29
Of course.

Warsha 20:30
And so two groups run this exercise on each other.



Evan 20:33
Yeah

Warsha 20:34
And some of the things that that are brought out into the sunlight, are just so wonderful when teams suddenly start seeing a wholly different perspective about the others.

Evan 20:45
Yeah magiv

Warsha 20:46
And I’ve seen magic happen in some of the companies that I have coached as well, as a result of this. So, it’s a wonderful, wonderful model to use.

Evan 21:00  

Very, very, very powerful.

Warsha 21:04  

It is

Evan 21:00
Nice

Warsha 21:01
Now,

Evan 21:02
To tell

Warsha 21:03
So, for you, guys, thank you for listening to the end. And here’s a little bonus for you. Head over to daretoscale.fm/5. And over there, you will find a little downloadable. Click on that, because that will give you you will find a little downloadable, that downloadable will have the list of those attributes or those adjectives, and the framework for you to print, sit down with that trusted team member. And for yourself, not absolutely set aside an hour and just go through this have a wonderful positive conversation. And remember the point of this, expand that public or arena space arena box. And what do you do after that? come back and tell us how it went?

Evan 21:57  

But of course, that’s what you do. Every time I come back and tell us

Warsha 22:01  

Come back and tell us how it went

Evan 22:02  

It really is? And also run the exercise for sure. And maybe also let us know, when was the last time you actually positively and actively sought feedback?

Warsha 22:08
Oh, that’s a nice.

Evan 22:09
You know, it’s quite interesting. So, what did I do? Well, and what could go better next time? It’s simple question like that? Because that’s part of your blind spot and fixing your blind spot.

Warsha 22:18
Yeah.

Evan 22.19
Right. It’s all part of the same framework. And let us know, when was the last time you actually went and got.

Warsha 22:27  

You know, you actually just gave a wonderful feedback framework over there.

Evan 22:33  

True. what went well? And what could go better?

Warsha 22:36  

Yeah. And I would say normally what people call that is constructive criticism. I would stay away from calling it criticism of any kind.

Evan 22:42
I agree

Warsha 22:43
Because it’s not criticism. While we can decorate it with fancy words like constructive criticism, you are actually criticizing somebody. And that’s not what is feedback. Feedback is what went well. And what could go better next time.

Evan 23:00  

No one if you really want to, you know, get out there. It’s actually feed forward. Because we’re not going backwards. We’re going forward.

Warsha 23:08  

Very nice. Very nice.

Evan 23:10  

So yeah, look, it is very, very powerful. And it’s positive in what you’re trying to achieve.

Warsha 23:15  

Yes.

Evan 23:16  

Because there are no failures. There is only feedback? Feed forward

Warsha 23:20  

Very nice, even better. So, to recap, come back and tell us how did this exercise go? And when was the last time you actually sought that feedback?

Evan 23:31  

Nice.

Warsha 23:34  

And accepted that feedback

Evan 23:29
I like that

Warsha 23:30
Yeah. Fabulous. Thank you again for listening in. And we will see you next time with a brand-new topic and a brand-new conversation with me Warsha

Evan 23:44  

and me, Evan. See ya bye,

Warsha 23:44
Bye.

Warsha 23:49  

Hey, thanks for joining us and listening right to the end.

Evan 23:55  

Remember to daretoscale.fm to subscribe and access show notes and transcriptions.

Warsha 24:00  

Oh, also, did you know that we have a Facebook page for our podcast listeners? Come join the conversations at daretoscale.fm/Facebook

Evan 24:11  

Absolutely. Oh, and also remember to give us a five-star review so other entrepreneurs can find this podcast like you and get value to scale forward their business.

Warsha 24:16
Fabulous. We will see you at our next show. Bye for now.

Evan 24:20
Bye